Joe Casabona helps people to grow their podcast into a 5-figure business.
In today's episode of Creators on Air, Joe shares his secrets for growing a podcast, measuring growth, and the frameworks to turn it into a business.
Our sponsor: Riverside
Use the code PASSIONFROOT2022 to get 15% off any Riverside membership plan
[00:00:00] Joe: Downloads if you want. Sponsors is like the is is the stat. But I would say that if you wanna measure how successful orhow well your podcast is growing, have a clear and consistent call to actionand see how well that converts.
[00:00:25] Akta: With over 10 years of experience inpodcasting, 15 years teaching, and over 20 years online, Joe Casabona is apodcast producer and coach who helps people to grow their podcasts into fivefigure businesses. Hey guys, I'm actor, and in today's episode of Create An Air,I spoke to Joe about how to monetize your podcast.
[00:00:46] Joe: You'll hear a lot of podcast consultantssay, don't even worry about making money at first. Uh, and I think that'sterrible. . I think that you shouldn't, you shouldn't worry about having, uh, aprofitable podcast at first, but making money should be one of the first thingsyou think about, like how you're gonna make money when you launch a podcast.
[00:01:09] Joe: Um, and I think that absolutely the firstthing any podcast or should do is define their mission statement so theydetermine. Who their podcast serves and what problem they solve and how theysolve it. Um, because that's really by, by making your podcast a painkiller,that's how you're going to create that profitable podcast, cuz then you'll findsponsors who are also painkillers for that same problem.
[00:01:38] Joe: You can use affiliate links or you cansell your own product through your podcast. Yeah, that makes a
[00:01:45] Akta: lot of sense. And I feel like it's very,very specific. . I don't know. For me, whenever I think of podcasts, I think ofalmost like relaxed conversations that don't necessarily have more structure.So for example, I'm a YouTuber, so I, I plan everything to the T.
[00:02:00] Akta: Whereas when I jump on a podcast,there's a lot less planning involved. So when you film podcasts, do you have toplan more? If you've kind of got that intention of, okay, this is solving aspecific problem, how do you approach the cause?
[00:02:15] Joe: Yeah, I think so. Um, I, I think what youwant to do is, uh, is right. Put a little bit more effort in, right?
[00:02:24] Joe: Like, for a long time my podcast askedthe same five questions, right? It was like, who are you and what do you do?What's your product or service? What's a big failure? What's the success? Doyou have a trade seeker for us? And I mean, for a while that worked well,right? I've been podcasting for 10 years. So like the bar was also.
[00:02:45] Joe: when I started because podcasting wasthis relatively new thing. I think starting in 2022 or 2023, the expectationsare higher. Right. Just like with YouTube. Yeah. For a while you could justkind of record on your webcam and like content was content. But now you havelike Sarah Deci and M K B H D and the Super Carlin Brothers and Roberto Blake,and they all have like these crazy amazing setups.
[00:03:10] Joe: And those setups are more accessibletoday. Mm-hmm. , uh, so. , if you're starting a podcast today, I think missionstatement number one, get a decent microphone. It does not have to cost $400.I'm gonna tell you right now, my setup is like an over a thousand dollarssetup. Um, you don't need that. You don't need that.
[00:03:31] Joe: You need a $70 or $50 microphone, likethat's it. And headphones. Headphones are crucial. Um, and then as you thinkabout the podcast, you wanna start. The level of effort that allows you to beconsistent, right? So if you're like, I wanna do an interview podcast, but likebooking guests and doing research is just too much work, that's fine.
[00:03:56] Joe: Try a mini podcast. That's the thing I'vebeen advocating for. It's like you talking for 20 minutes or less about a, asubject that you're an expert in. Mm-hmm. . And that's a great way to makemoney because now you're using your podcast to establish trust. , if you wannado guests, put a really good process in place where it's easy to book and, uh,it's easy for you to find out a little bit of information about those guestsbecause you wanna know a little bit of, you wanna do some research on yourguests before you have them on their show because you wanna guide thatconversation towards.
[00:04:28] Joe: Whatever best serves your audience and
[00:04:30] Akta: for YouTube retention is reallyimportant and it's almost a bit easier to make sure that you are doingretention right, because you can do, you know, video editing and make thingsmore engaging. How do you apply that to a podcast? So how do you make thepodcast conversations more engaging, and is that even something that'simportant for a podcast?
[00:04:49] Joe: Yeah, that's a really great question. Andretention is hard, right? Because like you have Apple Podcasts and that tellsyou like approximately how well you're retaining your audience throughout anepisode, and maybe Spotify shows you that, but like, By and large podcast statsare not as good as YouTube analytics.
[00:05:09] Joe: Like they're just not. Um, and so yeah,keeping that audience engaged is, I try to do it a couple of ways, right? Istart with like a cold, open, quote unquote, where I tell people what we'regonna talk about, right? Because you have like 30 to 60 seconds to hook alistener. Mm-hmm. a new listener. So I tell him, Hey, here's what we're gonnatalk about, and here are the things that you should look for in theconversation, because the other thing is that you need to be, uh, repetitive.
[00:05:39] Joe: You, you probably have a listener, likehalf of a listener's attention. I like to say you have one ear because they'reprobably doing something else. They're driving, they're doing chores. I wouldmow the lawn, like I have good noise canceling headphones, so I would mow thelawn while listening to podcasts.
[00:05:56] Joe: or like getting dinner ready for my kids,and that's like chaos. I have three small children and my, my wife works, um,she works at a hospital, so she doesn't come home until after dinner. She'slike, preparing dinner with three kids and trying to listen to a podcast isjust terrible. . Um, but, uh, so I, I tell people you've, you've gotta berepetitive.
[00:06:14] Joe: Mm-hmm. . Um, and then as far as askeeping that retention, you want to keep the conversation going. , you want tointroduce new information regularly and you want it to be engaging. Right?Which is why having those like same five questions every time is just, that'snot like people will get bored of that. But if you have a guess that likedrops, like a knowledge bomb in the beginning.
[00:06:39] Joe: I, I don't, I can't pull that term off.Sorry. Um, right in the beginning and then you dig into that a little bit. Nowpeople are really interested. Oh. I, I should think about money from thebeginning. Like what? How would I even do that? And when I don't have anylisteners right now, people are wondering and they wanna listen.
[00:06:58] Joe: Oh, I'm, do
[00:06:59] Akta: you know what? I'm so glad you said thatbecause that's what I do for this podcast. Like I have a snippet of theconversation at the start hoping that we'll hook people in. Um, so I feel a bitreassured now that you've said that. Um, I'm glad that you said that the statsfor podcasts aren't as in depth as YouTube analytics because that's something Ireally struggle with.
[00:07:17] Akta: I never know how well this podcast isdoing and what a good benchmark is to. if I'm doing well or not. So what do youlook at for your own podcast and what would you consider like, a good number ofdownloads to say okay, you're, you're doing quite well.
[00:07:33] Joe: Yeah. That's, so that's like, cuz downdownload is like such a capricious stat and like downloads doesn't necessarilymean listens.
[00:07:39] Joe: Exactly. It just means that it's, thesedevices have downloaded your episode, right? Yeah. Um, it's also adjustableaudience, right? So like, if I'm talking about, um, How to start a business,right? Lots of people wanna start a business. That's why, um, like smartpassive income is so popular. Uh, that addressable audience is a lot bigger.
[00:08:02] Joe: If I'm talking about like underwaterbasket weaving, like that addressable audience is a lot smaller. And so I'm notgonna tell that person like, a thousand downloads is great when it's like anaudience of like 50, right? Yeah. . Um, so. . That's why downloads is tough.And, and it could change, right? Like, you know, from YouTube, right?
[00:08:19] Joe: Like one video could just like,absolutely be like the best thing you've ever done. And then the next video isa total flop for whatever reason. Mm-hmm. . Uh, and part of that is thealgorithm, right? And there's no algorithm for podcasting. And so, um,discovery is a little bit harder, but I think. Downloads if you want.
[00:08:40] Joe: Sponsors is like, the, is is the stat.Like it has to be the stat, like that's what, uh, that's what advertisers aregonna wanna look at. But I would, I would say that if you wanna measure howsuccessful or how well your podcast is growing, have a clear and consistentcall to action and see how well that converts.
[00:09:03] Joe: Mm-hmm. . So at the beginning of mypodcast, right, the, uh, for, well, for my. Mini podcast. It's called MakeMoney Podcasting. Uh, there's a pre-roll right in the beginning when I say realquick before we get started, you're obviously interested in podcasting. I havethis great resource called the Podcast Booster Blueprint, which will help youget more downloads.
[00:09:24] Joe: Um, and then there's an opt-in, right?And so that on release days or the release, like first 48 hours, if I see morenewsletter signups coming from that form, I'm like, Hey, people are actuallylistening to this and it's great. . Or if you say like, Hey, review us on ApplePodcasts. Right? And then reviews start coming in.
[00:09:43] Joe: Great. You know, you have an engagedaudience. So I think that that is what I try to steer people towards. Right,because you want that, you know how engaged people are on YouTube and you're alittle bit at the mercy of the algorithm, and you're at the mercy of the factthat like YouTube wants to keep people on YouTube.
[00:10:01] Joe: Mm-hmm. with podcasting, you havedownloads, which is like a silly metric, right? And like, Views is kind of asilly metric on YouTube too, right? I'm like, I'm, I'm on the verge of talkingfor too long. I'll stop in a second. No, there's no such thing . Cause likewhat it's like on YouTube. What is it? If someone watches for like 30 secondsor a minute, like they consider it a view, like that's not a view, that's likeyou watch my intro.
[00:10:27] Akta: honestly, it's so true. Even commentsaren't even that reliable cuz I'll have a comment. Yeah. And it's so obvious ifnot watched the whole video, I'm like, you know, this does not tell meanything.
[00:10:37] Joe: Hey, how do I do this? It's likeliterally the thing I cover in minute two of the video. . Exactly. . Um, yeah,so, so like downloads is kind of the same way, but the beautiful thing aboutpodcasting is that the next step is not necessarily as obvious as YouTube.
[00:10:54] Joe: Like, like, subscribe, smash thatwhatever button. Right? Make sure to click the bell for notifications. Likethat's what you want people to do on YouTube. You get to, to define. Forpodcasting, what you want people to do next. So it could be join my mailinglist. I personally think that's the best one, but it could be, Hey, share thiswith a friend or tweet me, what was your at me?
[00:11:17] Joe: Whatever. Mastodon me. Toot me. Is thatwhat it's called now? Mm-hmm. Whenever. Right. . Um, uh, reach out to me andlet me know what you liked about this episode. Review us on Apple Podcasts. Um,and, and those are the things that if you start to. more people doing thatbased on your call to action, which should be at the beginning and the end.
[00:11:37] Joe: Mm-hmm. . Um, then you'll know, like you,you're building an engaged audience.
[00:11:43] Akta: I love that. I love how you've switchedsomething that I saw as a negative in the podcasting world. Just something thatis actually quite liberating and really just aid with growth of your overallbusiness as well. Because like you said, YouTube is like such a standalonething, whereas this, you're taking people away from the platform to your.
[00:12:01] Akta: your own, uh, thing. I'm interested inwhat you said about how you're not as dependent on the algorithm, which is agood and bad thing because the algorithm, okay, you are at the mercy of it, butat the same time, it helps with the reach. How do you help with podcastdistribution to ensure that you're actually attracting listeners to thepodcast?
[00:12:20] Joe: Yeah, so you definitely want to be on allthe major platforms. I would consider the major platforms to be Apple Podcast,Spotify, Amazon Music, and. I wanna say Stitcher, just cuz they've been around fora long time. Um, but Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music and, and Spotify for sure.Um, Spotify is like eating Apple's lunch, right?
[00:12:43] Joe: Like Spotify came in and they're like, weare going to invest in podcasts. Here is so much money, Joe Rogan be exclusiveto us. And like within a year, uh, Spotify had a bigger market share than. In,in, in the Apple Podcast. So, um, don't sleep on Spotify, which will rely alittle bit on that algorithm and like they keep things in their own ecosystem.
[00:13:08] Joe: Um, but I, I basically say be everywhereyour target audiences and be everywhere. Podcasts can be so, YouTube gettinginto podcasts in a big way. Uh, they announced it in March of 2022. Uh, well,they didn't really announce it, uh, a, a slide deck, like an internal slidedeck leaked, um, with their plans for how they're going to approach podcastingand audio only advertising, but the moves that they've been making over thelast couple of years, right?
[00:13:39] Joe: Mm-hmm. like, uh mm-hmm. , YouTube music.. Um, the, the currently premium feature which allows you to watch YouTubevideos without having the app open on iOS, I can't imagine that's gonna be apremium, a premium feature for much longer. Um, and then they enou, theyofficially announced at podcast movement over the summer and they rolled outyoutube.com/podcasts and then they just released a 70 page slide deck, uh,about how podcasters can better leverage YouTube.
[00:14:11] Joe: Um, I think the answer is like, beeverywhere. Podcasters can be. Uh, and, and then to get more audience, right?Without that algorithmic discovery, uh, the best thing you can do is go onother people's podcasts. I actually just tweeted about this, uh, five things Idid to grow my podcast by like 225%. Um, this year my podcast is already in thetop one and a half percent according to listen.
[00:14:40] Joe: I don't know if how good that is, but Iget, I get about 70,000 downloads overall per month. Wow. Um, so the fivethings I did to go from 30,000 downloads per month to 70,000 downloads permonth, uh, was clear, like better defining my mission statement. That reallyhelped cuz that made me create quality content.
[00:15:04] Joe: So that's one and two, but then podcastguest. Podcast swaps where you and I, maybe if I wasn't coming on the show, ormaybe later, like I decided like, Hey, I wanna show this show to my audience.Instead of doing an ad read, I tell people about this podcast and how they cansubscribe to it. Mm-hmm. . Um, so that's a podcast swap a, uh, a feed drop.
[00:15:27] Joe: That was number five, right guessing,swap, feed, drop, uh, where you and I might trade episode. and just drop themin our feed on an off day, right? Not on a regular episode day. Um hmm. Well,or it could be a regular episode day if you're like light on content that week.Um, with a little intro like saying, Hey, this, uh, this, this episode is fromthis podcast.
[00:15:50] Joe: Here's why I like it. Here's why I thinkyou'll like it. Here's where you can subscribe. And those three strategies helpbecause, , you're making it super easy for the listener who's already listeningto podcasts to just go and subscribe in the app they're listening to. And thatis super effective. So it's like a little bit like the YouTube game, right?
[00:16:11] Joe: You wanna make videos that getrecommended by similar videos. Yeah. Um, or you wanna create playlists so thatthe next video in your playlist is recommended if someone is watching thecurrent one. Um, and these guesting swaps feed drop. are similar to that,right? Because you're, you're putting another podcast in front of a podcastlistener's ears.
[00:16:34] Akta: for some reason I've never thought ofdoing that, but that makes a lot of sense.
[00:16:36] Joe: Um, it's so interesting cuz like I didn'teither until I did , like, uh, and then you're like of course.
[00:16:43] Akta: Like it sounds so obvious . Yeah, yeah.No, I should definitely do that. Cause it's quite a lot of creative podcasts aswell, so that makes a lot of sense.
[00:16:51] Akta: I'm definitely do that. Yeah,
[00:16:52] Joe: check out, uh, tined.co. I think it's dotco. It could be.com. But Tink Media maintains a podcast swap data. Oh wow.Where you can opt in, but then you also get access to all of, I think it's,it's like several, maybe a couple hundred podcasts now. Um, broken down bycategory, audience size and what they're looking for.
[00:17:16] Joe: That's what I did. That's what I did inAugust and like that I saw big growth from like September to. Thanks for the
[00:17:23] Akta: heads up. No problem. Um, let's move tothe business side of it now because on your website you said that you've madeover $250,000 from just podcasts, which is insane. So do you mind like breakingdown the different revenue streams that are actually possible with the podcast?
[00:17:39] Joe: Yeah, that is, uh, I have a littleframework for that. It's called the SMASH Framework. Um, and it is sponsorshipme. Affiliates selling a product and helping people. I think those are the fiveways. Now, like the secret other m that didn't fit is merch, but I don't knowanybody who, unless they have a huge, huge podcast that makes appreciable moneyfrom merch, uh, yeah.
[00:18:06] Joe: And even then it's like, like you'reprobably doing print on demand and you're making like three to four bucks pert-shirt. Mm-hmm. , you know? Yeah. Um, so like I don't really consider that asolid revenue stream. Right. But the other five, Can be. Uh, so most of mymoney comes from sponsorship. I got a little lucky, like someone reached outpre-launch for how I built it and uh, asked for a back link on my website and Isaid, I don't do that, but I'm launching a podcast with the same audience orsame target audience and you can sponsor for 99 bucks.
[00:18:42] Joe: And they were like, yeah. and I wasfloored. . So then after that I tried it again with another, uh, it was veryWordPress focused, my podcast in the beginning. Now it's creator focused. Um,and so I reached out to another company in the WordPress space, Hey, do youwanna sponsor this episode? Like you kind of mentioned a lot.
[00:18:59] Joe: And they're like, yeah, I'd love to. AndI again, just couldn't believe I re I asked people for money and they werelike, yeah, sure, . Um, and then I put together a pitch deck and packages and Ireached out. companies who I knew were sponsoring WordPress events, that helpedme because I know that ROI for those WordPress events is bad
[00:19:22] Joe: So if I'm going to, if I'm gonna chargeyou like a third of what these events charge you mm-hmm. and give you a foreverlink and a forever mention and can guarantee at least similar roi, like it'skind of a no. . Um, so being deeply embedded, like, first of all, that missionstatement, right? The mission statement back then was, uh, helping WordPress,like showing WordPress developers how other WordPress businesses got started.
[00:19:48] Joe: Um, and that mission was very strong. Ihad a strong network of people who trusted my work, and so reaching out tosponsors was, was pretty easy, um, in the beginning. And so I put a system inplace. . So that's sponsorship. That's still big part of my revenue, like themain part of my revenue for my podcasts.
[00:20:11] Joe: Um, and then the other thing I did waslike introduce new sponsorship packages, right? So, oh, like what if you, whatif we did like a mini-series separate from the main episodes that only yousponsor, right? And so now it's like more content, but it's also more revenue,more sponsorship, revenue. Membership, right?
[00:20:29] Joe: That is direct to consumer, essentially.So listeners can directly support you. I recommend you have, um, like at leasta hundred and like around a hundred engaged listeners. Mm-hmm. to do thatbecause it doesn't, like my first membership foray into membership wasterrible. Two people purchased at like $3 a month, and I'm, now, I'm on the.
[00:20:52] Joe: for producing like a couple of extrahours of content for six bucks. Oh, wow. . Yeah. So like, you wanna make surethere's demand for that. Yeah. Um, what's your mailing list can help with?Right. That's why I think the mailing list is the best call to action. But, um,ad for extended episodes are a really great, uh, low hanging fruit membership,um, benefit.
[00:21:12] Joe: I tell people you want. , uh, low effortfor you, high value for your listeners. Mm-hmm. . So like, maybe that's adiscord where all of your listeners can hang out and discuss episodes if peoplewanna do that. Maybe it's ad free extended episodes. Maybe it's a livestreamonly for members, right. Um, those things.
[00:21:30] Joe: Well, livestream is not exactly loweffort, but um, it doesn't have to be as highly produced as like a YouTubevideo, right? Yeah. Because you're just hanging out, you're hanging out withyour listeners, right? For like a half hour or an hour a week. Yeah. Um, or amonth, like whatever works. And do you have
[00:21:44] Akta: different that's packages for that or isit like
[00:21:47] Joe: one tier?
[00:21:47] Joe: I, I did at first. Uh, now I have onetier, like I really simplified over the last few years because yeah, at firstit was like, $2 and you're just like a supporter and $5, and you get like thead freaks in the episodes and $10 and you get, um, like the live stream andlike a, a build in public course. Like I, I was just kinda stealing benefitsfrom other podcasts.
[00:22:12] Joe: Yeah. . And then I was like, for 25 bucksa month, you get a free piece of merch per quarter and like, Now I have todesign and fulfill merch. Like I just turned into a physical business for 25bucks a month. Um, so like, definitely don't steal other people's. Think aboutwhat works best for you and what best serves your audience.
[00:22:33] Joe: Yeah. Um, so that is MembershipAffiliates. This is affiliate links in your show notes and in your content.Mention it on the. The best strategy for this, I'm gonna tell you, don't justdo like a link farm of affiliate links, right? Like this is, I don't, I don'twanna break the fourth wall a little bit, but I'm, I guess I'm about to, right?
[00:22:52] Joe: Black Friday happened recently as werecord this. In the WordPress space, probably in other spaces, a bunch of blogscreated there. Mega Black Friday Deals, page over 300 Black Friday deals. Andit might as well be titled, here's every affiliate program I'm a part of, .I'm, I can say, with a certain level of confidence that that does not work.
[00:23:14] Joe: Yeah. Um, what you wanna do? Take yourmission statement, who do you serve? What problem do you solve? Pick tools thatalso solve that problem. join their affiliate program, one or two, maybe three,and constantly talk about those and how they can help your audience and nowyou're helping develop brand trust in them.
[00:23:34] Joe: And when people are ready, they will buy.I generally do this for Convert Kit Riverside and Bus Sprout. Those are thethree, uh, that I've decided I'm going all in on. I'm part of other affiliateprograms. Guess what? They don't convert as much as the three I just mentioned,cuz I don't talk about those as much.
[00:23:51] Akta: Yeah, that's great advice. I love
[00:23:53] Joe: that. Yeah. Uh, so we're, we're 60%through selling and helping. Those are pretty close, closely tied together.You're using your podcast to establish yourself as authority to either sell aphysical product or a digital product, or help people through coaching,consulting, and courses.
[00:24:12] Joe: So both of these ways, you want your podcastto focus on you and everything. You know, even if you have a guest, you want tomake that a conversation where you're both talking about this topic where youcan showcase your expertise and then you get people on your mailing list andyou can sell the consulting or the course.
[00:24:30] Joe: I've seen this work really well forcohort-based courses. where the mission of the podcast and what you get out ofthe cohort are so closely aligned that, uh, they don't even build their mailinglist. They just have the call to action on the show and convert directlythrough the show. Yep. So I think if you're establishing trust in that way,selling a product or selling like your knowledge is a really good way tomonetize your podcast.
[00:25:00] Akta: Joe, you're coming out with such goodadvice for like all creators, like . This podcast is for podcasters, but like,honestly, this episode could help every single creator no matter what platformthey're building. Cause I think the advice is so relevant, like I'm taking thison board for YouTube now, . Um, I wanna jump back to sponsorships becausethat's your main revenue stream.
[00:25:19] Akta: And you said for, um, the membershipsthat only make sense when you have 100 engaged listeners. Is there kind of. Apoint where people should start considering pod sponsoring podcast episodes?Like how early should you start considering that?
[00:25:36] Joe: Yeah, great question. I tell people youdon't need any downloads, which is like a little bit of like a marketing hooplaw thing.
[00:25:43] Joe: Yeah. . But, um, you definitely don'tneed a lot. Um, and it really depends on the sponsorship campaign, right? Soif. This is from, uh, Justin Moore, who I, I think you probably know from thesame community that we're a part of. Yeah. Um, he talks about how there arekind of three reasons for brand campaigns, right?
[00:26:04] Joe: There's brand awareness, uh, there'srepurposing content, and then there's conversions. If people want conversions,like if those brands want conversions, you're gonna need a lot of downloads, oryou're gonna need a really like aligned audience. Mm. because like, I mean,look at like who is it, helix or Casper or, uh, MeUndies.
[00:26:28] Joe: Like they sponsor huge podcasts cuzthey're like a general consumer thing. Like everybody needs underwear. Um, andthey sponsor the biggest podcasts because they want conversions. Yeah. Smallerpodcasts like us, our bread and butter is brand awareness because downloadsdon't matter that much Getting. Uh, recognized voices and authoritative voicesin their niche is what they care about, like talking about their product.
[00:26:56] Joe: So, um, you don't need a lot of downloadsfor a a brand awareness campaign. Um, you, you want to, again, take yourmission, say, Hey, convert Kit, I help creators make money through my podcast.Your whole thing is making money, like creators making money in a really easyway. , I'd love if you sponsored my podcast, here's what I can offer you.
[00:27:20] Joe: Right? Yeah. And if they're going forbrand awareness, great. Like, fantastic. Easy peasy. Uh, the other thing isrepurposing. You probably know a little bit more about this from the YouTubeside, right? But, um, or on the social media side, like, brands will hirecreators to create content that they can then take mm-hmm.
[00:27:35] Joe: and reshare or use in a paid, uh,advertising. , um, that's a little less relevant for podcasts, right? Cuz not alot of people are taking like audio clips and putting them in paid ads. Mm-hmm.. Um, so what you wanna look for if you want sponsors and you don't feel likeyou have a lot of downloads, is a brand that wants to do a brand awarenesscampaign, um, that really aligns with your.
[00:28:03] Joe: and, and here's a little secret sauce youwanna calculate, not just your podcast downloads, you want to calculate yourreach across all of your platforms. This is what I call your overall reach.This is something that we as creators can do that the, uh, Joe Rogans or thestuff you should nose or the wonders of the world, uh, don't do.
[00:28:25] Joe: I can go to a brand and say, not onlywill, uh, you sponsor my podcast for three months. , but I'll make a YouTubevideo for you where I showcase my favorite features. I will create a reel onan, on Instagram. I almost said Amazon. Mm-hmm. , uh, on Instagram, uh, where Italk, where I point people to those videos and I'll, I'll give you a dedicatednewsletter where I point people to the episodes that you're sponsor.
[00:28:56] Joe: Uh, and so now I'm taking my, let's saythousand downloads or a hundred downloads, and I'm adding my 2000 YouTubesubscribers and I'm adding my 1000 newsletter subscribers and my 500 Instagram,uh, followers. Yeah. Now my 100 downloads is, I didn't, I just made thosenumbers up. So let's just say like 5,000 is your overall reach, right?
[00:29:18] Joe: Yeah. And so that's very appealing to abrand cuz now they're getting like omnichannel. They're getting like anomnichannel brands campaign from you.
[00:29:27] Akta: Yeah, I think that's a really good wayof thinking about it because I'm so used to thinking about each of my platformsindividually rather than assist whole ecosystem.
[00:29:37] Akta: And I think it's so powerful changing theperspective to what you've just said. Um, I wanna ask like, how do you actuallyfind your sponsor? .
[00:29:48] Joe: Yeah, that's a really good question. I,so I'm subscribed to, again, Justin Moore's Newsletter Creator Wizard. Uh, youshould put a link in the show notes with like your affiliate link to that, cuzlike he, they have like a referral program, um, , but, uh, every week theyemail, uh, brands that are looking for partnerships.
[00:30:08] Joe: But the other thing I'll do is, um, Iwill scour linked. or I will look at brands that are doing similar campaigns,uh, and I'll see if they align with my mission, and then I'll cold pitch them,right? And I'll say like, Hey, um, I noticed that you were posting on Instagramabout X, I'm a big proponent of that.
[00:30:29] Joe: Here's some content I made showcasingthat. Here's what I can do for you. I'd love to schedule a call, uh, and, andget on the phone and really talk about what your goals are and how I can helpyou. For younger creators and people who live on the internet calls areanathema to them, right? . But to big brands who are maybe going to give you agiant check, a 15 or 30 minute call means the world to them because it showsthat you're willing to take time outta your schedule and you're showing themthat you're like an actual person.
[00:31:02] Joe: Um, true. And so, like, I would say, ifyou're like, I don't do phone calls, suck it up and, and make the phone call,like, or the zoom call, whatever. Yeah. I think that's really important and it,it establishes good real goodwill right away, right? Because it shows like, I'mnot just looking for a paycheck from you.
[00:31:20] Joe: I want to create a relationship with you.And so, um, again, that's like when I was doing WordPress stuff, I would lookat people who sponsored WordPress. Events. Um, now that I'm moving into thepodcast space, I might do something similar. Okay. Like, who's sponsoringpodcast movement? Um, or who is targeting creators?
[00:31:42] Joe: Uh, and there are a few resources that,that, um, make that really easy. I mean, convert Kit is one of them, right?Because they're big on creators. So like, who are they talking to? Who are theysponsor? . Mm-hmm. . Um, and, and then I'll, I'll reach out to those, thosebrands.
[00:31:55] Akta: Is there anything that you wish you knewbefore you started working with sponsors on your podcast?
[00:32:02] Joe: Uh, ooh. Really good question. There'sprobably so much. Um, I think the biggest thing that I just recently starteddoing was not listing my prices. I thought I'm gonna be open and honest and putmy prices out there. Uh, and then again, I'm talking about Justin more a lotcuz he's like, he is, he, if, if you want podcast sponsorship or monetizingyour podcast, talk to me.
[00:32:27] Joe: If you want like brand deals, talk tohim. I went through his cohort, it's amazing. Um, but like, he's like, don'tlist your prices. Like now you're putting yourself in a box. Yeah. Um, whereas.Get on the phone with a brand, come up with custom packages for them. Right?Because your podcast can be, could be more valuable to them than the way you'repricing it.
[00:32:50] Joe: Mm-hmm. , or conversely, maybe a YouTubevideo is more valuable to them and the podcast is an add-on. So you want toprice based on what is the most valuable to them, what's gonna be the, the bestconverting thing for. . I pitched a brand recently where they made it reallyclear that YouTube has worked for them and they're kind of consideringpodcasts.
[00:33:12] Joe: So I made YouTube videos of thecenterpiece and I said, by the way, you'll also get three months on my podcast.Um, and that has been, um, just mind blowing. I really wish I knew that in thebeginning. Like, talk to brands. Yeah. Uh, and, and understand. What works forthem and what their goals are. No,
[00:33:34] Akta: that makes a lot of sense.
[00:33:35] Akta: And we actually have Justin coming on toseason two as well, so we'll have an episode with him where he'll hopefullydeep dive into sponsorships and everything we need to know about brand deals.Um, I'm gonna jump into a quick fire round, so I'm gonna ask you All right,five questions and just answer the first thing that comes to mind and it's thesame questions I ask all the creators that come on air.
[00:33:54] Akta: Yeah. So what's your favorite thingabout being a creator?
[00:33:58] Joe: Uh, I think it's, um, teaching people,right. I, I love teaching people and all of my content is focused around that.So it's cool that I used to teach in the classroom. Yeah. And now I get toteach people without having to be in the classroom.
[00:34:13] Akta: Nice.
[00:34:13] Akta: And what gives you the most inspirationfor your content? .
[00:34:17] Joe: Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal somethingthat Don Hahn told me, which is a super weird name drop. I met him at d uh, theD 23 Expo. He's the guy who like produced and directed The Lion King. Um, and Isaid like, how do you find inspiration? He goes, look outside of your space,like, look outside of your silo.
[00:34:33] Joe: Read books that aren't in your niche. Um,watch movies that aren't in your general interest area. That has really helpedme, right? So I make sure I always have like my phone or a notebook on me andlike I'll be like out for a walk or listening to something that I wouldn'tnormally listen to, and that will give me an idea for my next video or my nextpodcast episode.
[00:34:53] Akta: Ooh, that's great advice. I'm gonnastart doing that. Um, what's your favorite tool to help you create
[00:35:00] Joe: my stream? Yeah, I'm, I'm looking at it,which is why I hesitated, . Um, but my stream deck is like, I love automatingstuff. Like if people join my membership thingy, uh, they get access to myautomation library and my stream deck.
[00:35:18] Joe: Well stream decks now, uh, make it reallyeasy for me to like, push a button and make something happen. I was telling youin the pre-show, like I push one button and my whole podcast, uh, workspacegets set up. , which is amazing. And like that same button like turns on myrecording light and turns on do not disturb mode.
[00:35:38] Joe: Wow. And so like I push a button and I'mready to record and I don't have to have the mental overhead of, oh, did I turnon Do not disturb mode? Am I gonna get texts while I'm
[00:35:47] Akta: recording? That sounds insane. I likethat. I'm gonna have to start looking into that. Um, what's something thathelps with your work-life
[00:35:53] Joe: balance?
[00:35:55] Joe: Um, I like to play the drums. Oh, cool.Um, yeah, I've been playing the drums since high school though. My, uh,abilities would not dictate that. as far as, uh, I'm like just, okay. Um, and Ilike to smoke cigars, uh, which is like maybe controversial, like some people,like smoking's bad for you. Like I totally get it, but, uh, I don't reallydrink that much and I don't have, like, I don't gamble.
[00:36:17] Joe: Uh, so like smoking cigars is like myadvice, but it's nice because the people who appreciate cigars are fun to talk.Yeah. Um, and then people who just like hate the smell, like won't be near you.So like I can almost guarantee alone time when I smoke a cigar.
[00:36:34] Akta: That's a new way to be alone. I like it.You'd definitely get on my brother.
[00:36:37] Akta: He loves cigars. . Yes. Um, , what's onepiece of advice that you'd give to creators?
[00:36:43] Joe: Focus less on the metrics at first andfocus more on becoming consistent. Consistent doesn't have to mean daily orweekly. Mm-hmm. , but it does mean predictable. So I think the fir, I think,you know, oh, I released a video and it got like zero downloads or zero views,maybe I'm doing it wrong.
[00:37:05] Joe: Um, it takes time and consistency. So at,in the beginning, don't, don't look at the views, just focus on improving yourprocess and creating that muscle. No, that's great
[00:37:16] Akta: advice. I love the word predictability.I think that's actually a better word than consistency, which I think Yeah,right. Put, put some pressure on.
[00:37:23] Joe: Yeah. Right. Oh man, I'm, oh, I'm, I'mcoming up on that deadline. Yeah. Oh, what's gonna happen? But like, if yourviewers know, so again, like I publish my podcasts weekly, but in the lastepisode of the season, I always say like, Hey, I'm taking a couple weeks. ,I'll be back in January or whatever. Right. Yeah. And so like they'll know, oh,well Joe didn't just fall off the.
[00:37:46] Joe: Yeah, he's taking December off, right,because end of the year is busy and there's Christmas and he has three smallchildren and yeah. , you know, so, um, yeah, predictability is, is I thinklike, like you said, um, really good word there. No,
[00:38:01] Akta: that sound advice. Thank you so much,Joe. This has been such a great conversation.
[00:38:05] Akta: I think it's really opened my eyes tohow we can turn podcasts into business, but in a way that actually feelspossible and not something that's like far out of reach. So thank you so much.
[00:38:15] Joe: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thiswas such a great conversation. I
[00:38:19] Akta: really enjoyed this conversation withJoe and I think his SMASH framework is a really good concept for any creator.
[00:38:25] Akta: If you want Joe's help in turning yourpodcast into a five figure business, check out the podcast Liftoff Playbook.Joe is giving a discount to creators on air listeners, so go to podcastliftoff.com/passion to get yours. You can find Joe on his website, Twitter,Instagram and LinkedIn, and if you are a creator, check out Passion Fruit whereyou can handle sponsorships, collaborations, and payments all in one place.
[00:38:52] Akta: Thanks for listening in, and I'll seeyou soon.