00:00 Jamie: Is the title YouTube producer good enough for explaining what it is that I do because I kind of do like a little bit of everything.
00:15 Akta: Jamie Whiffen is the video producer for Ali Abdaal, who currently has 3 million subscribers on his YouTube channel. Hey, everyone I'm Akta, and in today's episode of Creators on Air, I spoke to Jamie about how he got his job working for Ali, what his job involves and how he's making sure that Ali's channel is growing.
00:33 Jamie: I've been making YouTube videos, I hate to say it for about 15 years. I started back in 2006, which I think is like the year after YouTube started. I was 12 years old and yeah, I had like a little camcorder and I was making videos of me doing magic tricks of all things cause that's what I was into as a kid. I did magic videos and I started to morph into tech videos and tutorials. And over time I started to make gaming videos as that's what my friends were doing. And I grew a gaming YouTube channel to around 90,000 subscribers, which was like, pretty big for when I was like 16, 17 years old. And in that process, I just learned a lot of things about how to make YouTube videos, how to make thumbnails, how to edit motion graphics, like the whole thing.
And that's kind of what just got me more interested in like media and marketing and that kind of helped shape what I went on to learn at university and the jobs after that. I worked for a company called little.studio. So whilst I was there, I was kind of, managing Gordon Ramsey's YouTube channel on MTV and a few other kind of little projects like that.
And so like I learned a lot from that side of things. Over time I then started to go into like in-house marketing for an accounting agency kind of just worked with them. And then I got that, previous job just before this one, which was at FanBytes and that was predominantly a TikTok agency, we did other, you know, Instagram and YouTube and all those kind of campaigns as well, but it was predominantly TikTok, which is a completely different kettle of fish to YouTube. But I learned a lot there about influencer marketing and kind of like the, the sales side of things and you know, how much influences are actually paid all of that kind of stuff.
And so I think all of that influence is like behind me, which kind of helped me get this role with Ali. But I only came across this . Role from Ali I've been a fan of his videos since like 2018, 2019, like very early on when Ali was quite small. And I went through his part-time YouTuber academy that's where we met. And the, the fact that I kind of like knew the team through the academy and also knew the content very well, I think all of that kind of just helped as well with me becoming Ali's YouTube producer.
02:33 Akta: Amazing. And what actually is a video producer, because a lot of your experience seems to relate to marketing. Is there a difference?
02:44 Jamie: This, this is the conversation we always tend to have in house as well. Like is the, the title YouTube producer good enough for explaining what it is that I do because I kind of do like a little bit of everything. I, I kind of say when people ask me what it is that I do, I kind of just say it's like the end to end, kind of like I oversee the whole thing.
So if I take you through the process, it's usually, I will go ahead and do some research like competitor analysis on which videos out there are performing well. And then I will put together essentially like a document where there's a bunch of video ideas. And within those, I have all of different titles and thumbnail concepts.
Ali will then take a look at those and say, yes, no, yes, no. Yes, no. To all of these different ideas at the beginning of the month. Once we've agreed on which of the videos we want to start working on, I will then take that and we'll go work with the writer and we'll also of like brain dump all of the information in Ali's head to this writer. And we then start to come up with a structure, we work on the hook and the introduction, and I work with that writer of that month to, to make sure that those videos are going to be in a position that we can eventually film them. We'll have table reads with Ali to make sure the content's good. I'll oversee kind of like the production side of it. So I'll be there when Ali films make sure he, you know, stays on track. He doesn't go and ramble or, or riff too much and kind of like loose direction of what it is that he's speaking about, help with the thumbnails, both in like Photoshop and from like an idea perspective, oversee like the editing. So I'll get first drafts from our editors. I'll make sure that, you know, it all looks good. Add some comments of like things we could improve, things we could add. Upload that to YouTube, do all of the SEO behind that.
What else? I kind of then work with reporting as well. And so put together reports and looms explaining to Ali this is what worked well. This is not what worked well, what we could do better. Work as well on like the sponsorship side of things, kind of negotiating deals. So as you can imagine, like, there's, there's like many, many things, and this is kind of like tip of the iceberg. That's what I really like about this job is that every single day is completely different. And yeah, it, sometimes it can be very hectic as you can imagine, like having to juggle all of these different things. But yeah, it's a really like fun job to have.
04:40 Akta: I feel like it shows how much actually goes into YouTube because you're basically dealing with end to end, like you said, and there's just so much. Involved with it. What do you think makes a viral video? Because since you've joined Ali's channel has actually been growing really nicely. So you've definitely been making a difference in terms of that. What do you think makes his videos stand out?
05:02 Jamie: I think if I knew what made a viral video, I'd be a billionaire with a hundred million subscribers, you know? But it's, it's quite difficult to answer a question like that because I think it's, it's very different for everyone. It depends on like what kind of YouTube channel that you have. But when I look across the board, I think a large component of what makes a viral video is curiosity. So, you know, that's something that I've found to be a factor is like, the title and the thumbnail needs to stand out on the homepage and kind of make you think, you know, what the heck is this?
And want to click on the video. So you've gotta have that curiosity at that point, but then you've also kind of got to have that throughout the video and it needs to deliver on that promise. And, you know, I think mystery is just such an important factor when it comes to things like TV shows and movies. But I don't think enough people kind of incorporate that into their YouTube videos, especially when you want to keep people watching for as long as possible to increase retention and watch time, which as we all know, kind of is what will help the algorithm promote your video even more, which is where you're gonna get the viral video.
I, think, having the curiosity and mystery within a video is a lot easier when it's like an entertainment video, like a MrBeast kind of video. But I also do think that when it comes to value-adding educational videos, it can be done too, as you can kind of like slowly reveal information that your viewers have initially clicked for.
For me, I think like that those are the videos that perform well. I think it's kind of like, what is this? It's answering a question for me. You're clicking onto it. You're trying to discover what's happening. You wanna see what that payoff is going to be at the end of the video. And I think if you have that, as a whole, it not only helps from an algorithm perspective, but I think it also helps from like a storytelling perspective. And you as a viewer then want to share it with friends and family. And that's kind of like how videos can then become viral.
06:52 Akta: Yeah. So have you changed kind of the way that Ali approaches videos then? Because I feel like in the past, he is quite, he's quite a rambly person he's very open and just like talks about whatever is on his mind. So knowing that you want curiosity to be part of that, have you changed the way that he does things on his channel?
07:09 Jamie: Yeah. So we're, we're constantly changing things. How, not only Ali comes across in videos and the content that we're delivering and, and how that's delivered, but also, you know, from an editing perspective and thumbnails like, everything's constantly changing. We're, we're constantly AB testing to find out what is the, like the, the optimal formula as it were for, for an Ali video and something that we've recently done with Ali is moving away from kind of bullet points. So we've kind of had bullet point scripts for a while now. It's what Ali's always done, cuz most of the knowledge that Ali has comes from his own mind. And so he typically will sit down and riff a video. What we want to do now is kind of. Move away from that slightly. So it's not the energy Ali has on that day or what thoughts are randomly appearing in his head. And we're trying to now move to teleprompter for scripting. And we've kind of been doing this for the last couple of videos and no one's left a comment saying, you know, Ali's eyes are flicking back and forth, cuz that was always like our worry.
But what we've essentially done is we, we kind of have the initial meeting with Ali. We get him to brain dump, everything that he wants, like in a bullet point view. Excuse me. We then expand that with the writer. And we kind of then have a table read with Ali, which is usually like an hour and a half long meeting where Ali will go through the script and make sure that it's completely in his tone, that this is exactly what it is that he wants to say before we then put it onto a teleprompter. And that has allowed us to ensure that Ali is kept on track and is constantly adding value.
So the video is just very, very powerful because what we typically found with our retention, that we, when we'd always analyze these videos, was that when Ali would riff or start telling a story about something that people couldn't necessarily relate to, this was typically when he would talk about being a doctor, you know, 99% of his audience aren't doctors. And people couldn't understand keywords that he was using or relate to the experience that he was having of working inside of a hospital and retention would always drop off. And that's just one example, but when Ali would ever just riff about whatever it was the retention rates would drop. And obviously if we're trying to improve our videos all of the time and make sure that people are watching for longer, we have to stick to adding value and to delivering on the promise in the title and the thumbnail.
And so that's why we've now taken this teleprompter approach. And so far the signs are that it's a good thing and he still does riff every now and again, it's still him. It's this is not like we're putting words in his mouth. And we're just finding that it's yeah, it's a lot easier to kind of like keep us on track rather than sitting down, just like sporadically going through some bullet points, trying to, you know, craft a narrative as we go.
09:45 Akta: And there's quite a lot of people involved in a single video. How do you guys make sure as a team that you still make the videos really authentic to Ali where it's in his voice?
10:00 Jamie: Yeah. So we spend a lot of time in the writing process. I initially would kind of like go to Ali with ideas that I know he would be interested in. He also pitches his own ideas. And that's like a meeting that we have at the beginning of every month. The week after that is when we sit down with the writer and we let Ali just brain dump. And that's really like where we get his initial thoughts on that particular video. And that's kind of like where we, we keep his voice. If we were to, you know, say to a writer, there's this video idea, go ahead and write it and come back to us. It just wouldn't really work for Ali. Wouldn't be authentic. Ali would want to change a lot of things, and it's just not an optimal way of, of making YouTube videos because we, you know, such a, an important part of being a YouTuber is having, having that authentic connection with your audience. And we don't want to lose that. And you know, the risk that you have of kind of like outsourcing your writing is that you lose that. And, you know, YouTube's original motto underneath their logo was YouTube: broadcast yourself. So, you know, the, the, the platform's always been around broadcasting yourself. And that's always what I'm always thinking about when we're looking through this. And it's why we have these table reads where we, we, you know, before Ali sits down to record, we just double check, is everything here right for you? And is it in your voice? And it always is. And that's kind like how we make sure that Ali, you know, stays true to who he is. And we're not losing that in the writing process.
11:25 Akta: I actually didn't know that that was their tagline broadcast yourself. It's so interesting to know. I love that.
11:31 Jamie: It got dropped when Google bought it for some reason, I guess Google just wanted to be more capitalistic. Like don't care about broadcasting yourself, you know, just, just monetize and make Google more money.
11:42 Akta: Yeah. No, I love that. I love that authenticity was like the core of it from the beginning, which is really nice. You guys said that you spend a really long time doing table reads. I'm really interested to know how long each process like each stage of that process takes you. So from coming up with the ideas, writing, filming, editing, like how long does it take for Ali to produce a video on his channel?
12:01 Jamie: It really depends. There are some videos that you can turn around very quickly. If there are other videos that require research, for example, or it's a challenge video where, you know, I took cold showers every single day for 30 days. It's gotta be 30 days at a minimum, you know? So it, it really depends. I'd say on average, it, it can take us around two weeks from, once a script is written. So we, we kind of like have one day a week that is a recording day. Let's say that's a Thursday. We will record. It will then take an entire week for our editor to kind of like turn around that video and potentially make any animations and, you know, have the first draft and review, and then it's usually the week after that, it, it will go live. So it's usually about two weeks from the script writing process. Now the script writing process is in, it is an entirely different kettle of fish in that some videos can be done within a week. Others can take sometimes months.
We have videos that we're still working on from, you know, December last year. We, we try and aim with a single writer to get at least eight scripts written per month. So there's quite a lot there, but it is their sole job to write videos. So they have that time to be able to, you know, craft really good videos.
We're kind of are trying to get to a position where we're at least a month ahead of you know, content that's going out. And we are at that point, if we were to do one video a week, but we want to get up to the point where we're doing two potentially three videos a week. So we're just trying to, you know, keep this system in place, make sure everything's working. And then we can eventually scale from there.
13:35 Akta: I'm kind of interested in how. The structure of your guided schedule works because there's so many different people working within the company, you have this uploading schedule that you're trying to meet. So is it the fact that you do have set days for set things? Or how do you know what day you're working on what?
13:52 Jamie: Yeah, so we've kind of had a, a number of different writing systems since I've joined and they all require Ali at different points and, for different lengths of time. The current system that we have, I think is working quite well. And that's essentially like a monthly cycle as it were.
So if we start to, excuse me, we have the four weeks within a month, but really from my perspective that next month's content starts two weeks prior. So it's almost like a six weeks window. So kind of like week minus one is what I call it. In that week, that's when I go ahead and I do all of the research on the video ideas, I think would be great for the upcoming month. Then we have week zero, which is why it's just me and Ali. And in that meeting is where he then says yes or no to all of those video scripts, the scripts that he then says yes to that's where we get him to just bring up everything within those Notion cards.
And then we have week one. So this is where the writer comes in. And for them, their system is essentially week one to week four. But for me, it's a six weeks process but on week one, that's where me, Ali and Willem our writer, head writer on the main channel, we sit down and we say, here are the scripts that you're gonna be working with for this month. Ali's already brain dumped everything that he wants within this card and we'll go through all of those seven to eight videos and he will kind of spend that, you know, two to three hours with Ali asking any questions that you may have putting together the structure for the video. I'll be there helping with things like the hook and the intro. And at that point, we then leave the writer to write for the, that rest of that week, one and week two. For week three and four onwards, that's when we have the table reads and these are . With Ali and we have, you know, time the diary on a Monday and a Wednesday for Ali to go through these scripts and to make sure that they're all good. Typically they go through completely fine because before that, I just, by myself will look at these scripts and approve them will kind of give feedback to Willem. So that's, that's our current writing process.
15:52 Akta: That's really in depth. I love that. And you guys have also started doing daily blogs as well. Was that strategic or was that just something that Ali felt like doing?
16:03 Jamie: It's something that we've all kind of wanted to do for a while. I've always wanted daily vlogs from Ali, you know, before I even worked for him just as a viewer, I was always interested to see what he was up to. I think he's very interesting and, I've always kind of like wanted to see the, the business side of it. Cause I enjoy listening to Ali talk about productivity tips and tech videos and you know, all of the usual stuff you got on his main channel, but it's more like I'm interested in you as a person and kind of like what you're doing day to day. And that's where I kind of knew where daily logs would come in. I was hoping that they would be very similar to Gary Vaynerchuck's daily V vlogs, where you kind of see him, you know, for eight to, to 12 hours per day and you see what he's up to. And I kind of mentioned it to him a number of months ago, and he was like, yeah, I'd really like to do it. But the capacity across the business was kind of like at its maximum at that point. And so we couldn't feasibly do it.
We kind of agreed that we would do it for the month of May as an experiment for 31 days, let's see if we can do it so far. It's going really well. I think we're into like nearly our third week now. And I think we're potentially gonna keep it going. Because it is going very well. It's very fun for the team to kind of like get involved with the video aspect of things. As you can imagine, very tight turnaround in terms of like needing an, just a dedicated editor for that vlog. And you know, I get the footage usually around like 4:30 every single day. And I very quickly have to watch the video put together a title, thumbnail description. We get it out for mostly 5:00 PM. And yeah, that's pretty much it at the moment. It is a lot of work. As I mentioned at the beginning it's very, very fast paced the business, but, you know, it's, it's working really well for growing the, the second channel.
We just, you know, smashed past 60,000 subscribers on that channel. So it's doing really well. I'm interested to see what it looks like towards the end of the month and what happens going forwards because something that's quite interesting that I've noticed is that on the second channel, everything's going up. But the main channel, the views have slightly started to come down since we've done daily vlogging. And I think the reason for that is because, people only have a limited amount of time to watch YouTube videos per day. If they land on the homepage and they see Ali, they may click on the Ali video, but it's a vlog and sometimes they may miss the main channel video. And so if the main channel videos start to get harmed then it's kind of like a question of, okay, is it better if we go to three times a week instead of daily, you know, there's, there's conversations that we'll have later down the line. But I want to kind of like see something a little bit more concrete before we, you know, change our current strategy.
18:26 Akta: And what was the reason for having a separate channel for vlogs? Is that something that you think YouTuber should do is having separate channels for separate things?
18:35 Jamie: Yeah. I think if you are, you know, predominantly a vlogger, then that's your main channel, you know, you should stick with that. Someone like Casey Neistat that doesn't have, you know, separate channels. He will do his vlogs, but he'll also have these videos that are much bigger than that. And then they're not typically a vlog and they work. I think if you're that kind of, YouTuber, I think it works. If you are someone who's like Ali, where you are kind of providing a solution to people's problems, cause he's obviously value based and education or with his content. I think it does need a separation, and a second channel does work in his favor. Because it's, not only is it a different type of content in that it's very much like handheld a bit more rough around the edges, the main channel is very polished and we have a high standard that we have to keep to, and I think if we merged them, people would get a little bit confused there on, on kind of like what to expect and what it is that they were subscribing for.
19:30 Akta: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. And what about titles and thumbnails? So are you responsible for doing that across the channels, titles and thumbnails?
19:38 Jamie: Mm-hmm.
19:38 Akta: What's your strategy with those, especially for the different channels? Does it vary if you're doing vlogs versus more polished videos?
19:46 Jamie: Yeah. For, for vlogs, we don't really have much time. So it's usually, like I say, I, I get the video and I just have to watch it and come up with a title. Sometimes that can be quite challenging, especially if there's not too much, that's gone on that particular day and it's in the vlog. With the main channel videos, it's thought out way in advance. We, we try to have anywhere between eight to 12 titles for an individual video. So we have quite a lot upfront. We'll usually kind of like pick which we think is the best and that's the video that will then go out live on day one.
But immediately we use AB testing on TubeBuddy to kind of like try out different titles, different thumbnails, and just to kind of work out is this potentially, you know, not the best title we could have went with. You know, when a video goes live, I'm more constantly looking at the analytics as well to, to see, you know, what our click through rate is if, if it's underperforming, then I'll change the title, the thumbnail straight away. And we'll just try and work out to, to find out what, you know, what's the best combination, essentially, of all of the different titles and thumbnails that we have. But, yeah, they're, they're much more thought out. Sometimes I will think about titles and, you know, think, is this a browse type video or is this a search type video? If it's a search type video, I think a lot more about the keywords and kinda like how that video appears.
20:56 Akta: And how often are you looking back at old videos to think about changing those titles and thumbnails to see if they perform better?
21:03 Jamie: A lot. Yeah. We, we, we change them quite a lot. I usually spend a lot of time looking back and see, you know, which of the videos have high impressions right now, but a low click through rate and kind of seeing is, is there something that we can do there in terms of changing the title and the thumbnail? I did this a number of months ago now with one of Ali's videos, which was like investing advice for teenagers. The initial title was in, something like What I would teach my 18 year old self. It was something like that. And I just thought, you know, 18 year olds is very specific to an 18 year old when we could just make it broader for all teenagers. And I changed that and I changed the, the thumbnail as well. Something that was a bit more interesting and it picked up in the algorithm and within like a month, it pulled in another 800 K views.
So it is always worth going. I always recommend to people go back to your old videos, you know, change the thumbnails change the titles. Because even if your subscribers they've seen that video, it may just not be appealing to them. But then if you change that thumbnail they may think it's a completely new video and click on it.
So there's always loads of these additional benefits you can have through, through going back and updating your catalog.
22:06 Akta: Amazing. I need to go and do that ASAP. So since you've joined Ali's team, what have you learned about growing a channel and about YouTube and making videos?
22:17 Jamie: There's there's a, there's a lot. There's a lot, a lot to kind of like condense. I think when it comes to things like YouTube, like the advice I usually give to YouTubers when they're first starting is to always outsource their editing. This is something that I did myself and when I did it, I can now longer go back. And as I said, I've been making YouTube videos since I was 12. So I've constantly been, you know, video editing at this point I'm kind of like a little bit sick of just, you know, spending hours and hours, every single week, putting everything together and outsourcing the editing is just such a, a good way of being able to be consistent and uploading consistently on YouTube is like the number one thing that you have to do, it's the only way that you're really going to improve is by keep on doing the thing.
And from being within this company, I've understood how outsourcing editing can be taken to another level when you have multiple editors and editors who are dedicated to just one thing. So we, we have, I think like three editors. Now we have a couple of that external as well that we outsource to. There's people for like the vlog for the podcast channel, for clips, for the main channel. Like there's just a ton of, of editing, like capacity that gets used up by all of these different channels. And it just means that you can do more, especially when it comes to things like [ content and you know, the content you can put out on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok, because that's essentially going to help promote your personal brand and get more people interested in going to the main channel, for example, and once that gets growing you'll make more money, which means you can then hire another video editor, you know, you like see how things scale. And so, you know, being inside of this company has just kind of shown me a little bit more about the, the system around everything and kind of like where you can get to when it comes to building up a team.
Because before I joined here, I've always worked within agencies where you're kind of like the only person working on one particular channel. And in my own life, you know, as a YouTuber, it's usually just me and now like an editor I outsource to, but on this it's just like completely to a different level. I think it's like 21, 22 of us now we're still like hiring more people. We've got interns coming this summer. So the team's constantly growing and it's, it's kind of like a bit baffling, I think when people will ask Ali, oh, so how many people do you have, you know, working in a company, something like 20 odd people. It's like, what do they all do? You know? But every, everyone is like super busy. There's, there's so much to do. And if it does feel like we're kind of just at the beginning here and we've got so much more to grow.
24:35 Akta: That's incredible. Jamie, I'm so excited for you. I think you are an amazing asset to Ali's team, like, especially knowing you personally. And it's really exciting to see how much Ali is actually growing now. So that's incredible. So my last few questions are gonna be a fire around. These are questions that I didn't send you before. So you just have to answer with a quick line. Doesn't have to be anything overly detailed, just the first thing that comes to your head.
24:55 Jamie: Okay.
24:55 Akta: So what's the best thing about being a creator?
24:59 Jamie: The community. Do you want me to expand on that or is that how quick far you want my answers be as well?
25:03 Akta: I think, I feel like that's a good answer. I mean, especially our P T Y A community from Ali. I love our community. So I definitely agree with you on that one. What's your favorite productivity tool?
25:13 Jamie: To do list.
25:14 Akta: Oh, really?
25:15 Jamie: Mm-hmm yeah.
25:16 Akta: Have you got a lot of good insights from Ali since working with him on productivity?
25:20 Jamie: Yeah, I mean, yes and no. Like, yes. It's interesting to watch him as a person, how he uses these tools, how he does certain things, but at the same time, not really because he puts it on his YouTube videos. It's all out there. You know, that Ali doesn't have this secret formula. Something that he's hiding from people. He, he he's completely open with everything and it all goes on the YouTube channel. So when he says these are the best productivity tools I use, he's very genuine. And those are the tools that he uses every single day. But yeah, for me to do list is, is really important. I have a mind that jumps in a thousand different directions. So having somewhere to just dump everything and put it down and structure it out to know like what my day's going to look like is, is just really useful.
25:57 Akta: Amazing. That was a good detour from the rapid fire. What gives you the most inspiration for videos?
26:02 Jamie: Other YouTubers. Yeah, I, I, I just, I just like seeing the YouTubers who are like two or three, sometimes like five steps ahead of you. And even YouTubers that are completely different to you. Like, I love Mr. Beast. It's completely different to what Ali does, but I'm constantly taking things from what he does and applying it to Ali.
26:18 Akta: And what's one thing that helps with your creator work life balance.
26:22 Jamie: I'd say they're kind of synonymous. And I think that's, that's an important part is like, I do this because I enjoy it and I find it fun. It doesn't really feel like work to me. And I think that's part of why I enjoy everything so much.
26:34 Akta: Definitely. I think that's important. And what's one piece of advice that you'd give to other creators?
26:40 Jamie: Spend time focusing on your hooks
26:42 Akta: And what makes a good hook?
26:44 Jamie: A good hook is a hook that immediately shows that you're going to kind of like give the payoff that you promise in that title and that thumbnail. So many YouTubers will have an interesting title, and thumbnail, and you click it and there's two minutes of them waffling about things that aren't even relevant. Mr. Beast again, is a great example of someone who will deliver on that payoff within the first 10, 15 seconds. And he's very rapid with how he gets into that video. There is no welcome back to the channel. It's something I'm trying to get Ali to do now is kind of like slowly drop the hey friends, welcome back to the channel. I, my name's Ali. I'm a da da da, because by that point you're 30 seconds in. You just wanna get straight to the value, deliver on that promise.
And those are the things that's going to help keep retention. That's gonna make people think these videos are really valuable. I'm gonna go and binge all of these other videos. And when you do that, the, a algorithm is going to say this channel's doing really well. Everyone's watching it. Let's promote it. And that's really how you're going to grow.
27:37 Akta: Amazing. That's great advice. Thank you so much, Jamie. I really appreciate you coming on.
27:41 Jamie: Thanks Akta.
27:43 Akta: I really enjoyed this conversation with Jamie. He's really shown me that with a strategy, you can grow your YouTube channel. He's also given a great insight into how Ali Abdaal has managed to turn his YouTube channel into a media company with table reads and everything. You can find Jamie within on YouTube, Instagram, and Twitter, where he shares more strategies for YouTube growth. Thanks so much for listening into our conversation. And if you are a creator, check us out on Twitter at @getpassionfroot, stay passionate, and I'll see you in the next one.